S3 E66: Megan Ihnen on Cultivating Creative Community
I had a delightful conversation with Megan Ihnen, a mezzo-soprano and “new music force of nature” who wears many hats as a performer, educator, coach/consultant for musicians, and also in arts admin. With these many roles, she is an amazing connector and natural community builder.
Tune in to hear us chat about creative placemaking, authentic community building, balancing many roles and having lots of work variety, burnout, being a musician during the pandemic, routines, harmful ideas around “hard work”, and how we can bring our very favorite selves to our creative work.
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Hello everyone, welcome to episode 66 of Being A Whole Person. I'm excited to present another interview episode for the first time in a while, and today I'm talking to Megan Ihnen about cultivating creative community, among other things.
First, I have a few short announcements. Number one, I am super excited that Compassionate Creativity Coworking Club is celebrating its first birthday, or just did celebrate its first birthday on September twenty first. We have a small but mighty crew there, who meets up every week, Tuesdays from 1:30-3PM Pacific. We get together and we work on our stuff. Anything from those admin tasks that you need some accountability and buddies to help you do, creative work, self-care, people sprinkle in all kinds of things and it's been so great. Everyone that comes is always like, "Oh, I got more done than I thought I would," and that's just a really great feeling.
So to celebrate the birthday, I have a coupon code for 25% off your first month. The code is birthday1, and you can use that until the end of September. You can also just come and try your first session for free if you wish, and then you can use the coupon code if you want to. What a deal. So I'd love to see you there. Let me know if you have any questions about it and I'll be happy to answer them.
Also, a quick reminder that you can always submit questions to me if there are things that you want me to talk about, or just topic suggestions. I am always excited to hear those from you, because I want to make podcasts and newsletters that help you as directly as possible, so don't hesitate to let me know. You can always email hello@rebeccahass.com
Lastly, please rate and review the podcast if you're enjoying it, it really helps it get found by all those algorithms that we love to hate, but can also work with us with some support, so, thanks in advance if you do that. So let's get on with the show. I'll tell you a little bit about Megan Ihnen.
Megan Ihnen is a mezzo soprano on a mission to change the world through the commissioning, performance, and proliferation of new music, and she's also a new music force of nature. She has a very extensive bio of many things she has commissioned and premiered, and just so many accomplishments that I will let you go to her website and read the long bio to hear more about that stuff.
But on a more personal level, Megan and I met through the new music community on Twitter. There used to be this chat called #musochat that happened every Sunday night, and there would be different topics each week, and that was really fun for meeting other composers and performers. We actually met in person a few times too, because I used to live in Minnesota and she used to live in Iowa, and she would perform in Minneapolis sometimes, as we talk about on the show.
She's also an educator, a coach and consultant for musicians. She does arts admin for the Live Music Project and has worked at some other very cool organizations.
Megan knows a lot of people. She's a really good connector, and she's an absolutely wonderful, warm, and friendly human. So I knew she was the perfect person to talk to about cultivating creative community, because it's the kind of thing where you mention her name in the new music community, and people are like, "Oh yeah, I know Megan. She's the best." So she was an awesome person to talk to about this.
She also often presents on creative placemaking and these kinds of things, so she has a lot to share about that. We also decided to do this episode as an exchange between this podcast, Being A Whole Person, and Megan's podcast Studio Class, so we tried to format it in a way that we were asking each other questions and really just having a conversation more than me leading an interview. If you listen to this, you know I try to keep it pretty organic.
So our conversation took us through talking about balancing all these different things, burnout, dealing with being a musician during the pandemic, and how weird that was. We talked about variety in your work life versus having this comfort in your routine. We talked a lot about hard work and work ethic and these messages that we had gotten growing up, and what community means, what networking means, and how we can bring our favorite selves to our work. And I'll let you listen in to hear more about what that really means. So without further ado, let's get into the conversation with Megan Ihnen.
Rebecca Hass :
Today, I am thrilled to welcome Megan Ihnen to Being A Whole Person. Welcome, Megan!
Megan Ihnen :
Thank you so much, Rebecca. I'm really thrilled to be here, and also, Rebecca, I'm so excited that we're sharing this episode on both of our podcasts.
Rebecca Hass :
Yes!
Megan Ihnen :
I also get to welcome you.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, that's right. Thank you very much. Welcome to our exchange of Studio Class meets Being A Whole Person!
Megan Ihnen :
I love it.
Rebecca Hass :
Well, I'm really excited to talk to you because we kind of know each other through various music circles and have only really talked in person a couple times face to face in the same location. But why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Megan Ihnen :
Well, I like to say, you know, my little pitch phrase is, I like to say that I'm a mezzo soprano who's devoted to the commissioning, performance,and proliferation of new music. So that really kind of encompasses the way that I do multiple things in the world. I sing, i do coaching and consulting and I also am the executive director for the live music project. So that's kind of it. And that also explains why you and I have crossed paths in multiple of the multiples of the hats that we both wear, and it's been really great to do that. So I'm excited that we're meeting this way, too.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, me too. Yeah, for listeners' context, we are both former Midwesterners or I guess Midwesterners on the inside, yes, exactly. I used to live in Minnesota and Megan used to live in Iowa, so we had crossed paths at some new music events in Minneapolis. So yeah, it's really nice to talk to fellow musician coaches too, because there aren't as many, or that's not the stereotype that you hear about when you're like, "Oh, coaching, creative coaching," etcetera, and all of us are doing so many different things in this day and age. Beforewe hit record, you were saying, there's different pieces to what you do, and as a musician. They've been shifting, they were online, they're not online. They are maybe both at the same time, and there's just a lot to navigate here in 2022, and if people are listening in the future, it's probably still true.
Megan Ihnen :
Yeah, not going away.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, So what has that been like for you being a musician slash coach, slash admin person, through the pandemic?
Megan Ihnen :
It's been interesting. I think we're all, as you mentioned, navigating this, just kind of trying to ride these waves and, in, let's see here, in 2018, I think it might have been, it was my last year. I was, I had been in nonprofit, you know, arts nonprofit land before that for a few years. When I had moved back to Iowa, I was teaching in higher ed, and I started to realize, you know, I had two careers. I had studio teaching and performing that were happening at the same time, in growing ways that required me to be in the space with people, and I was, those spaces were not the same place. And so I was like, oh, this is kind of a problem. And this is, you know, in 2018, this is like, before, especially in the kind of classical voice world. People were just not used to doing kind of remote lessons or anything like that, and so that was very off putting to a lot of people. So it meant that if I came back from a gig, I'd have to do, you know, like 80 makeup lessons, just like grinding it out, and you think, " Oh yeah, it's fine," but it's very long. Teaching so many lessons and i realized that this was like, that's not going to work for me. I really need to figure out something else or figure out different puzzle pieces that are going to make my life work at the moment. And so at the end of that kind of school year, May of probably 2018, i left all of my teaching jobs and I said, "OK, I'm putting it out there that I'd like to work remotely. I have these skills from, you know, all of my background experience and do a lot ofmarketing, I do a lot of arts admin stuff kind of across the board," since once you work in a nonprofit, you do all the things right because you have to, right? You've learned all of the parts. And so I was like, "I'm really looking for this right now. Does anybody know of anything that's opening?" And I got really lucky that a handfulof people reached out to me and they were like, we really want to work with you and we're happy to create something for you, let's work together. And so I was working remotely for my multiple clients before the pandemic and that started. And so that gave me a chance to really get to know my working from home style and also just like generally working from wherever I'm at and all the time management that comes with that, stuff like that. So going into everybody working from home, I was just like, "OK, well I can deal with this,"but I didn't realize how much having the performance side of my life was like the balancing outlet. It's not that I'm, like, afraid of the technology or anything. I started to recognize that the part that I love so much about performing is the actual being in the space and feeling people's energy while you're performing for them and, being,you know, without getting like too woo woo, but here I am, that kind of like, communion and witnessing we do in a performance space for each other. And I was like, "Oh, I had no idea that I felt this strongly about it, about that part." So live streaming and broadcasting just was like, well, OK, I mean, I'll do it, I suppose, but I'm not fueled by this at all. And I'm OK with setting some music stuff down and focusing on some, you know, other parts of my life at the moment while we're trying to figure out the pandemic stuff when it comes to singing. And obviously I've done stuff and I got joy out of being able to do some live stream stuff and some, you know, album stuff and recording in general but I learned a lot about how important it is for me to balance any of the professional work that I'm doing with the professional performing that I'm doing and that that is a necessary, necessary integration for me. So I don't know, Rebecca, is that kind of something that you were feeling? It's so different being a composer during something like quarantine early in the pandemic than it is, I suppose, somebody who's like, I really wanted to sing to their faces.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, well, I completely agree with you, you can't reproduce that energy from having people in the room with you. There is absolutely nothing like that. But I actually do like doing online concerts, too. I did several of them during the pandemic and I moved nine months before the pandemic. So, I've said this on the podcast before, March 1st, 2020 I had just finished up this project accompanying for Opera on Tap here, and I was like, okay, here we go. I'm going to gig. I'm going to play my own music. This is it. And then that, of course, did not turn out the way that I thought it would, though, you know, I still feel like I'm figuring out where I fit in the music scene here, and figuring out, where do I gig with Brazilian music, with my stuff. I have lots of other things that I do, but it was great to have online concerts as something that people were used to doing at that point, because all of my people from Minnesota were like, "Cool, we can see your concert. You're really far away now, so we couldn't come in person," and then, you know, anybody anywhere was, their spirits were lifted by having these musical interludes, and, Brazilian music, who doesn't get joy from that?
Megan Ihnen :
Oh my gosh, yes.
Rebecca Hass :
That was really fun. I was doing them, I don't think it was quite monthly, but periodically throughout 2020. And as far as composing, it seems like during a pandemic it would be like, cool,I can just hunker down and write, but it meant that I had like zero alone time anymore and I really need that for, I mean, i prefer it for practicing too,I don't have to have it, but for composing, it really feels like I need that alone time and I just didn't have it. So I kind of lost my groove with composing from when I moved in 2019 until, I don't know, like mid-2021 when my partner and I moved to a place where we weren't sharing space with anybody else because we moved in with a friend at the beginning. We're like, this will be a great place to land while we figure things out, and then two years later, it was like, "OK, yeah, we can finally move now, I guess," because, you know, it felt better to just stay where we were with things feeling uncertain, work wise, and, you know, just uncertain in general. So that was weird, yes.
Megan Ihnen :
And I think that's, I love that you said "uncertain" because I think that that's one of the things that just is that overarching word for, throughout all of this, is just different forms of uncertainty all the time. And our creative personalities, and especially with new music stuff we're used to, like, make it happen with whatever you have. Like, you know, here's two sticks of gum and a paper clip, like Macgyver.
Megan Ihnen :
But that feeling of uncertainty, just kind of showing up in new forms all the time throughout these last few years, it can be really exhausting. So what people were asking me this last, even just the last, like 8 months or whatever, they're like, "Oh, Megan, are you gigging again? Are you going out on the road more?" And I was saying, "Oh yeah, I mean, i do, especially when people ask me. I'm happy to go," but I haven't been hustling that side of it as much as I probably had been before because I found that, it's just wildly different responses to like, who's booking what these days, how far out they're looking, how likely they are to cancel something. And I was like, well, if it's so just this little cloud of uncertainty that just follows things, and we're just trying to do our best. You know, we're showing up every day being like, OK, well, maybe I'll like play this way, or I'll write this way, or I'm going to keep working on stuff for the organization this way, but every day is new and random challenges.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, and like you said, that's kind of the life we signed up for, and I know I personally do thrive on a lot of variety in my work life, but I am also someone who really thrives on routines and structures. So there's always this balancing act, and I love that you said, I don't know how you worded it, but you were like, "varying levels of uncertainty" or something like that. And we started talking about how everything was so uncertain at the beginning of the pandemic, but things are always uncertain. We never know the future. We were just like forced to deal with a lot more of that uncertainty than we had previously and I started thinking a lot about this balance between novelty and comfort during the pandemic, and how much of that I need. I'm a person who suffers from anxiety. That's something that I manage, and normally it's manageable for me, but, like, I can tell when my brain is a little like, "Ohh, I could use a few more familiar things in my life right now." I could use more of, you know, I need that anchor of something familiar for me to not feel completely just unmoored for a little while. Or like, if I'm traveling, I know this about myself - I don't feel settled until I've been there for a few days. And, you know, these are things that you just need to kind of know about yourself and plan, but our energy levels are always changing. Our circumstances are always changing. So our resilience in the face of that uncertainty, and the amount of variety that we give ourselves, and our work is always changing too.
Megan Ihnen :
Well, and I think it's interesting, when you were saying that, it reminded me of in 2018, 2019, I was on the road a lot and the most I've ever been as a performer. I was just like, OK, this is different, which means, you know, a lot of performers are used to it. There's probably people that would laugh at like me being like, "This is a lot," but I was probably gone like 2 weeks out of every month and in different places. So I was kind of like, oh, I remembered from that time when everything was changing, and I was in different environments all the time that I had to give myself, or I had to recognize, that I needed more instances of control, right? I was letting, I was exchanging, saying, " Well, I'm going to go on the road. I'm going to do all of these things. I'm going to be in different places all the time. I'm going to be on other people's schedules all the time. And so in exchange for that, I need little ways that I get to feel like I chose this, I'm in charge of this, I get to do this." Otherwise my body is going to revolt. I know I will have a response to that feeling of like, oh, there's not enough that I feel in charge of. That was helpful information kind of heading into a different type of uncertainty, I suppose, you know, a different type of it where it's like, the opposite of being on the road all the time is now I'm home, but my whole routine, and everything, and having an entire outlet of my life is not there anymore in the same way. Then you have to go, "OK, well, what are ways that I can give myself whatever I need at the moment?" Sometimes it's hard. I'm sure, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or strategies about that, which is like how you've identified how to give yourself what you need at various times, especially if you're feeling overwhelmed.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, I think about this all the time and it is a moving target also, because what we need is always shifting. I talk about this a lot on the show, but it's worth repeating, because we are constantly having to navigate it. But I think the first thing is just even asking yourself what you need. Like, that's an underrated first step because if you don't have the awareness to ask, then you're definitely not going to figure out what you need, right? And making that more of a practice, like, I have a reminder set on my phone for seven AM, that says, " What do you need today?"And I have, a morning walk is one of the things that I do to feel healthy and good, and you know, I can ponder that, like, am I feeling emotionally tender today? Do I need to be, like extra nice to my, you know, inner little kid who's rebelling today? Or like, do I have a headache? Do I need to drink more water? O r, you know, something basic but not always easy to do? And I think the more that we ask, the more we're going to find the answer, even if it's not particularly easy to find it immediately. Then also just kind of knowing, what are my personal red flags for when I get really stressed out? And then I also like to talk about the pink flags, which are the not so obvious signs, like I'm feeling kind of irritable,and I'm snapping at my partner for no reason or, you know, just these little things that you just know internally. Other people might not notice them yet, but learning what those are for you, so that you can take some kind of action to pull back when they're happening.
Megan Ihnen :
Definitely. So I think that's, a big part of it is like, don't wait until you get fully overwhelmed to be asking yourself, right, asking what do I need right now? I think that has always been a step that I'm, you know, continuously practicing, which is don't wait until you're, don't wait until there's a fire to like, smell the smoke, you know?
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, and I think it's worth saying that if that happens to you, if you do end up completely overwhelmed and blindsided, you don't need to be harsh with yourself, like, why didn't I predict this? Give yourself the grace and you know, we can meet ourselves where we are, also, if that does happen. Because I know that I didn't know what anxiety was, as like a diagnosable disorder, or I didn't understand that I had it, and I was feeling pretty awful. But it was like, you know, what's that metaphor of the frog in the. boiling pot that's getting gradually warmer and warmer and warmer and then you don't notice it because it's so gradual. That's very real too.
Megan Ihnen :
Very real. Very very real.
Rebecca Hass :
That's why I like the pink flags.
Megan Ihnen :
Yes exactly.
Rebecca Hass :
Hopefully you can notice right?
Megan Ihnen :
Yeah, I think that's great.
Rebecca Hass :
And then just kind of knowing, what are the things that actually give me energy? And what are the things that are taking away my energy? F raming it like that? It makes it more clear, like, what tangible thing can I actually do that isn't, I don't know, quitting everything or like staying in bed all day when there's probably things that you want to be doing that aren't that?
Megan Ihnen :
Well, Rebecca, you had mentioned that we're both Midwesterners, and I think this might come up later, you know, throughout our conversation, but this point that you're making just also touches on that deep Midwestern sense of self. Something that I've had to learn about myself is the tendency to overwork, to try to get out of something that I might be feeling emotionally overwhelmed. Or, and I know that you and I have also talked about, I went through a pretty intense phase of burnout, like in 2017. That taught me a lot about who I needed to be for myself as an artist, and what kinds of things I was focusing on. But when you were mentioning like pink flags and stuff like that, and it just kind of triggered me to be thinking about that phase, and the things that you can like hear in your own voice or you can feel in your body as you're kind of heading towards it. But then, some of my Midwestern, like, Protestant work ethic type stuff, kind of overriding those, and being like, "No, work your way out of it." And what I meant was work, not like, you know, process, like ask yourself questions. I was like, no, literally work and more work. And I was like, OK, one of mine is definitely recognize that impulse, and it is probably not as helpful. There are times where you can just throw yourself into a project or some type of work and it actually does help you kind of just focus on something and kind of get clear and move forward. And then there are times where it is not as helpful and I've bumped into those along the way where I was like, "No just do a lot of work, just really throw yourself in there." I have hit the points where that strategy was no longer useful, and had to kind of recognize that I wasn't just failing, that I needed to do more and more work. I was like "Oh no, I have sailed right on past like a point where I should have reigned this in."
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, I hear you 1000% on the Midwestern work ethic being baked into our DNA. I definitely have had that modeled for me, like, my dad grew up on a farm, so he grew up without...his family didn't have a ton of money, like, they did have to work really hard to make ends meet. He was one of five kids. That is very real, and so I don't want to say that there's never a reason that you need to do that, and privilege comes into play, of course, just want to acknowledge that,too. But like, I had this modeled for me. He would work his construction job, long hours, and then come home and work in the garden the rest of the time, like, always doing something. I interviewed him for a class in high school. It was just like, ask your parents about themselves, and it was like, what is your number one value? He said, "Work ethic." Yeah, so, it was modeled and it was literally said to me. I also remember weekends when I was, I don't know, 15 or 16 or something, and I'd want to watch a movie on a Saturday afternoon because it's the weekend. I don't have school today. This is fun. My mom was like, "What are you doing? You're wasting the day away."
Megan Ihnen :
You know this is positive rest!
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, and I didn't have terms for that at that time, of course. And you know, I think everyone in my family has come to a different awareness of burnout and rest and stress and all those things over the years. But you know, it is really difficult when it is the water that you've been swimming in your entire life. Also music school really drilled that in. I talk about that all the time. How you're bragging about how many classes you're taking and how little sleep you're getting, like, this is how I prove I'm a good musician, a good person, right? Did you have that experience too?
Megan Ihnen :
You know, i didn't feel that as strongly. Ok, hold on. I need to be honest about this. I definitely was that person in a lot of ways. I didn't feel a lot of external competition, because I don't think about...maybe that's kind of like that community-first side of my brain, which is like,"Oh no, these are the people that I'm here with." So I don't go to places feeling a lot of external competition, but I feel a lot of internal ambition, and so I think there's that drive. So in undergrad I had a very, " OK, well, I'm here, I tested in, I head into that music major, and so, I ended up doing undergrad in a shorter amount of time. So I definitely was bringing that energy to it where I was like, "Well, I'm overloaded on classes because I'm going to finish this and I'm going to get out of here, I'm going to do the next thing, right?" So I'm bringing that, hopefully not in a way that was like trying to size up with other people because I didn't feel it that way,and I definitely didn't feel that. You know, in my Masters program, I didn't feel that desire to compete with people that way. But there's always that kind of like, "Well, are you involved in all the things? Are you doing as much as you can?" and, you know, I think it's one of the reasons why I got really interested in financial stability for artists. Somewhere along the line I heard, you know, got information from somebody I cared about,right,where they were like, "Well, you can be a musician, you just have to work really hard. You just have to, you're going to have to have all the jobs and stuff." And I was like, "You're telling me I can have it as long as I work really hard? Great, I'll do that!" And it was just like a huge version of a permission slip where my brain then interpreted that information as,that's the way you can have it. Not like that's one way to have it. And so I was like, "Oh, OK, so if I just work all the jobs, do all the things, then I can live this life that I want to."Over time as I would bump into my limits on stuff, and i'd be like, "OK, well,but I still want to be able to do this,so I have to be able to work hard. But how am I able to do this next And so you can feel like, kind of subconsciously or in the background, your brain starts to shift to be like, well, if I had more financial freedom here than I'd be able to do these things that I want to do. So what does that look like? I think that's why I got into it more was because I was like, "Well, I want to figure this out for myself. And then I also want other people to figure out that they don't have to."It's not the only way that you can have being an artist in your life to work all the jobs for little money and stuff like that. It doesn't have to necessarily be that way if you're thoughtful about how you build your business and stuff and you know what that looks like. So I think that's where that comes from. It was me wanting to figure it out for myself,and then also people asking me questions,and then being, well, sure we can talk about it if you want.
Megan Ihnen :
But yeah, i'm sure. Did you feel the same way and in school about feeling that culture of busy ness?
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, and like you, I didn't feel the competition. Like I need to be better than everybody or I need to be better than this person. It was more just a pressure to make sure that I measured up, make sure I was good enough, because i actually didn't start school as a music major. I was unsure about it. So I started as a music minor and just took the theory classes, started that stuff right away, and I had enough AP credits so I didn't have to do general stuff and then still finished in four years. But I always had this idea that I was kind of behind everybody else because I wasn't, you know, as legit since I didn't start as a music major. And I'm also a person who feels very comforted by having a path to follow. I think over the years, I have followed many paths that looked clear, and looked good on somebody else, but they weren't my path, so, that person that told you,if you work really hard you can do this? I would be really susceptible to that,too,because it's like, "OK, you're telling me this is possible."I neededthat validation that, I need to see or hear from someone else that, yes, I can do this.
Megan Ihnen :
Right,and you're like, oh, well, you said it's possible, like, excellent. I'm going to run with that.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah. Do you watch the show, Brooklyn 9-9?
Megan Ihnen :
I have a little bit.
Rebecca Hass :
I'm getting big Amy Santiago vibes right now.
Megan Ihnen :
Yes, I'm here for that.
Rebecca Hass :
I'll do all the paperwork and all the things and...
Megan Ihnen :
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely vibe with that.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, me too. Me too. I try not to, but to an extreme extent, but yeah, definitely. So you mentioned community a little bit as you were talking about being in community and school, and that is one of the main reasons I wanted to talk to you, because you're such a connector of people. In the new music community, I feel like,if you talk to anyone and mention your name, they're like, "Oh, Megan, yeah, I know Megan, of course!" So can you talk a little bit about what it is like for you to build community? It seems like a very organic thing because you are just genuinely interested in getting to know different people, and you know, it comes out of your work, it seems. But can you just speak to that a little bit?
Megan Ihnen :
Sure, yeah. Let's see here.I am from a family, I would say,of kind of extroverted introverts, right, that they're very good at, we're all very good at kind of storytelling and connecting with other people because we genuinely like that. I love like just being in conversation with people. I love that part of what we do,and the fact that I get to go to lots of places and kind of be around lots of different people at things, it gives me this unlimited resource of people to meet and like, learn more about them, and that's very cool. So i derive a lot of pleasure from that act of human connection. That part's really important to me. Then I also, from just a professional side of my life, early on, realized that, you know, the way that I got gigs, the way that I got opportunities was because people knew me, right? They were, that a lot of things, and some of the best things showed up in my life because somebody knew me well enough to know that I had kind of disparate interests, but they came together in this one way. And so they were like, actually the person you need to talk to about is about this is Megan,and that comes about because you've built rapport with each other, you kind of know what my interests are, what my values are, and also what I'm wanting to do, you know, all of that stuff and vice versa. So when I talk about community building, I think a lot of it comes from that place of, well, yes, of course, I always say that networking is not a dirty word. So many people thought of music school being like, oh, it's all about who, you know. And I was like, OK, but when you say it like that, it sounds like a bad thing. Who told you that? Who told you that in that way, that makes you also think that it's bad that somebody who knows you well enough to send you information about something - that that's a bad thing? Like what do you think is the alternative here? And I want to. I genuinely want to hear that. I'm not trying to like, punk anybody with that. I'm saying, what do you actually think is the alternative here? I would love to hear more about that because I feel like we could talk through that, so, that feeling of genuinely wanting to know what people are about and what they're interested in. Also, that helps me kind of put things together. It helps me just go, " Oh, this person needs to talk to that person and that'd be super cool and nothing has to come of it." I just kind of want people to know sometimes. I like being a person that passes along information and I know that, with so many of us in arts and culture, so many of us are freelancers, or at least partially freelancers, or whatever, but there's not always tried and true highways of communication. So if you can also be the person who just kind of passes along something because it doesn't have to be for me for it to be valuable information to somebody I know. They may not know about those resources because that's something that, you know, arts organizations generally with limited budgets cannot do the same marketing that you can do in a for-profit context. I know that, and I want to put more people into places of information. So that's really important to me. So I do that in just the way that I'm like, hey, I'm going to put this information out here because it doesn't have to be for me to share it, but also, if I keep an awareness about the people that I'm in community with about their likes and interests and goals and desires and stuff like that, then when I see something, I can be like, "Oh, hey, I thought about you for this," you know, and vice versa. And so I always tell people, especially when it comes to, even just the side of business stuff where it's like, I call it visibility building. It's just making sure that your community knows what you're interested in, enough so that if they see something come across their desk, their screen, whatever, that your name is at the top of their mind, in a way that's really powerful because then they will go, "Actually, you should talk to so-and-so about this," and every time it's a more fulfilling life experience to have these deeper connections with people. And the knock on is, way better gigs that come to you, because people know you better in general, and so they send you things that are more likely, you know. So it's like, oh, why wouldn't I want to do that instead of putting my resume in a stack of a thousand people, and maybe they hear me, and maybe they don't. Maybe they listen to like 5 seconds of a audition tape that I sent in. I'd rather just work with people who sought me out as a collaborator. So yeah, I don't know if that might be all over the place, but I think that's kind of some general musings.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about a lot of those things. I definitely relate to that, "networking is a dirty word." I thought it was gross to go to networking events because it felt like it was going to be shmoozy and people just in it for, you know, whatever they could get out of you and not about genuine relationships. I think, also,when I graduated from college, I just wasn't as comfortable with communicating with people. I had less confidence than I do now. I didn't feel comfortable in those situations. I'm an introvert, so there were just a lot of reasons why it felt uncomfortable for me to seek out networking on purpose. I noticed after a while that I was just doing it organically, and yes, I was playing with this person, andthen they knew who I was, and that's a win for everybody, right? Because, the resume in the stack is a lot of work for the person looking at them. You are just in a sea of strangers. And then, they get to hire somebody that they know or somebody who knows somebody they know, somebody who is tried and true in some way and you get this connection. So, that's a win for everybody. Once I started to think about thinking about networking as, I'm just getting to know people i'm interested in, I'm genuinely interested in learning about them, and if I approached it from that point of view, it was like, I'mjust here to like make friends and learn about people, and that's actually networking. That feels so much nicer to me than the schmoozy whatever idea I had before.
Megan Ihnen :
And you're so right though, I'm not, i am not immune to the number of people that are like, "Oh, let me just talk to you to see what I can get out of you," kind of thing...
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, that'll happen, no, yeah.
Megan Ihnen :
But if I have also found that if you just kind of shut that down also,like you just approach it, they're like, listen, we're either going to be in relationship with each other or we're not. And those are my ground rules for like being in this together, then you have a lot more power in that interaction, no matter where you are in your career, orno matter how old you are, or whatever. You have a lot more power to just decide. This is the kind of relationship building I want to do. And so if somebody is bringing you that energy in a situation, you know, this is for anybody who's listening to us like that. You can start to be like, "Oh, well, I don't. I don't want to do this," butyou can also be the person who asks a deeper question, and then if they give up and move on, then you're like, fine, no loss.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, and you can sense that after talking for probably a few seconds, and definitely a few minutes.
Megan Ihnen :
Really, I think community isn't just one place. And also I do a lot of talks on community building. Community isn't one specific organization, one specific place, one specific building,or whatever. It's not even one specific, like online gathering of people. It can be that it can exist in those spaces. But community is shared values, shared activities,and consistency, and so that's the hallmark of community. So think about the people that you're in community with you, sharing activities. You're sharing values and you're doing it consistently enough that you feel that, right? And because community is definitely a big buzzword these days, like, everybody thinks that they have a community, everybody, every online entrepreneur,thinks that they're built this amazing community,and maybe you have, but maybe you haven't. Just because it exists doesn't mean that we have these qualities, you know? And so community doesn't only exist in my musical, professional life. It exists in the fact that, I also know the people who work at the grocery store and I see them consistently, and it's a shared activity. Our shared value is like being kind to each other when we see each other, right? You know? So thinking about that, community building is of value wherever you go. You know, it's about walking that no matter what you're doing, and thinking about, w ho am I in this situation, what am I bringing to this so that we can have that kind of relationship that doesn't feel transactional, it feels transformational. So I think, you know that's one of the things that you're doing here so well, too, is getting beyond transactional thinking and really thinking about transformational thinking, right.
Rebecca Hass :
That's a beautiful way of saying it, that I hadn't come to myself. Thank you for verbalizing that.
Megan Ihnen :
Well, my pleasure. Would you be able to talk a little bit, even if the labels work or don't, you know, but thinking about the difference between connecting with people transactionally or transformationally, when you think about those kinds of things, are you approaching it differently? How are you bringing yourself to have that kind of relationship?
Rebecca Hass :
That's a great question. I feel like I am kind of allergic to a non-genuine interaction, just kind of in general, my body and mind just kind of reject any time that is a possibility. So I feel like I'm kind of unable to approach things in a non-genuine way, so it kind of just takes care of itself that way. I mean, sometimes you're in a situation where, say, somebody found you online, and they're trying to book you for a gig and they're trying to talk down your price, and you know that you're not in that interaction to have an ongoing relationship with that person whose wedding you're going to play, or whatever. And so, yes, that is transactional, but, I think back to my friend Lynn O'Brien, who I had on the podcast a couple seasons ago, back when it was a little bit different. It was more about business and spirituality and self-care and it has since evolved into what it is now. She said, how can I show up generously? What is the price at which I should charge in order to show up generously?
Megan Ihnen :
Oh, I like that.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, so I think back to that a lot, and you know. If you're not being paid enough, you're using your time for something that is depleting your energy and taking you away from other things that might pay more, and also might be more rewarding. So you know, there's always this calculus we're doing with that, of course, and it's complicated, but I really like that, because it is a gift to everyone involved if the price that you agree upon allows everyone to show up generously.
Megan Ihnen :
That's so good, I'm gonna totally tuck that away.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, do it yeah. Lynn's the best, yes, absolutely.
Megan Ihnen :
Because I think that also just, from the side that when we're talking about business coaching too, so many of us have a hard time being able to either raise our rates or set our rates sustainably. When you think about it that way, it definitely frees you up to say, "Well, yeah, setting my rates at this means that I can show up generously and I'm not starting off from a place of resentment, because I "gave" something here that they are taking for granted. You know, when you're under charging for what you know you should, you know you should be charging something higher than that, and you show up to that, even if it's subconsciously being resentful of the fact that you felt like you gave something that they don't know that you gave anything in that scenario. So they're thinking, they're getting a weird vibe from you, and why is this person being weird about this? I'm paying them what they asked me to pay them, you know? And you're sitting there being like, "Ugh," you know, and so that really helps, I think, if you think about making sure that just your prices are where they need to be, so that you can show up that way without any sort of resentment or anything like that.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, and you think about each gig as an isolated thing, but it's all a part of your whole picture, and, you know, your entire income that you're making. And so if you think about it, like, say teaching is your main thing. If you're charging a low rate so that you need 50 students, and that's way too many and you're super burned out, you are not giving what you hopefully could be able to give to your students. And if you raise your rates and you can have 30 students instead, you have more energy to go around. You know, that's good for everybody.
Megan Ihnen :
That's great for everybody. That's so true.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah. So I think we could talk for a really long time, but being mindful of the time, I would love to ask you the question that I ask everyone who comes on the show, which is, what does being a whole person mean to you? Big question.
Megan Ihnen :
It is. You're right. It's a great question. Being a whole person, I think, is about all parts of yourself being in the alignment that you need at that moment, right? So they don't have to be exactly equal at all times, but how do they need to be aligned right now, and then also being in integrity with yourself? And being in integrity with yourself I think has a lot to do with, am I the same person outwardly that I think of when I'm being honest with myself inwardly? Am I acting in accordance with the way that I see myself moving through the world? Those are all things that I think about, and I think about being a whole person and the part about being in alignment with all the sides of yourself is also not sacrificing one for the other, because it will never go the way you think it will, when you like cut that part out or whatever, because that just doesn't work. They all need to be there. All the facets of yourself need to be there. And I think that can just extend on to so many things if I start from that place of, am I in alignment with all parts of myself in the way that it needs to be right now? And also, am I in integrity with my soul? Am I doing what I said I would do? Am I acting within my values? Am Iwalking my talk that way? If I'm not, then i need to do some inward reflection. You know, you got to start, you got to be there, you got to know what those things are. The more that you can kind of ask yourself inside, and then, make your actions match that but it can be small little things. It can also be huge things and whenever I'm feeling that discomfort, it just always means I have to check back in and be like, OK, something is not aligned at the moment or i'm not being actively in my integrity, which is acting the way that I that I think I would or that I want to. Yeah, those are just so important to me. It's so random because it's all little things, like you can just be like walking through your house, and suddenly you're like, "I'm not doing that thing that I thought I was," but you can also kind of look over your whole life and be like, generally I'm there. More days than not, i'm being in alignment with myself and I'm bringing my best self, or my favorite self. Was it you that was talking about this? I don't know, you might have said this, where instead of asking,"Am I bringing my best self to this?", which requires kind of the music school mentality of like, am I bringing like the A plus version of whatever I am? It was saying, am I bringing my favorite self to this? And I was like, that does really help.
Rebecca Hass :
That was not me, but I love that. Thanks for sharing.
Megan Ihnen :
I feel like that would be something that you would tell me.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, well, I'm probably going to now. Thank you.
Megan Ihnen :
Yeah, I was just like, oh yeah, that, definitely. But it allows me to come back to that question that I had of, am I in integrity with myself? Which is, this is the favorite self that I have. This is the one that I want everybody to interact with, and that I want to interact with inside, that I want to be the person that I'm interacting with. So am I being my favorite self? From whatever I'm thinking and feeling at that moment, but also am I being my favorite self with other people? And that can be a challenge. You know, if you're like sitting in a work meeting or a faculty meeting or something, you're like, am I being my favorite self right now?
Rebecca Hass :
Am I allowed to be my favorite self right now?
Megan Ihnen :
And so I'm not saying it's easy or anything like that, but it's definitely worthwhile.
Rebecca Hass :
It's the North star that we're always trying to point towards, at least, even if it's not possible at the time. That is a fabulous answer and I like the differentiation between best self and favorite self, because best self kind of implies other people's expectations, and favorite self comes from within.
Megan Ihnen :
And that can all be semantics, but it's like, find the semantics that work for you.
Rebecca Hass :
Exactly.
Megan Ihnen :
Whatever it is, just give yourself that gift of saying,"Yeah, this is the enjoyable version." So I just, i definitely see a lot of people in my life where I feel like sometimes they aren't given that space to be, to enjoy themselves in that place, either we're striving for something in a way that feels like, "Wow, OK, that's really intense, cool, like, whatever you need, buddy. Go ahead and do that," but also, then that interaction, it puts that damper on the thing that I want, which we talked about is, I want that connection. If the other person, or if myself, if I've put that mantle on of like, well, I have to bring my best self to this, and if I'm not doing that, then I'm failing or whatever. It puts that barrier between us, of you, or me not enjoying myself or you not enjoying yourself, that we can just do the thing we're going to do, which is maybe go to rehearsal, or be in conversation with each other or coach together, or whatever it is.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, and this path of either being a musician or an artist, or really any path that you're trying to make yourself, is not easy. So if you don't like it, it's like, you're working really hard AND you don't like it. Hopefully there's a way to make it so that you like it at least enough to fuel you.
Megan Ihnen :
We're gonna talk about this sometime, in another one, a bonus episode, sometime. It's like the cult of suffering around, " Well, I'm doing the work so it's OK if I'm suffering for it, or it's like, I should be suffering because that's the way that I can have this, you know, kind of whatever it is.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah. Or that's just how you do it, and everyone else paid their dues, so you have to, too.
Megan Ihnen :
Like that feeling of, this work is serious, so I need to suffer for it. And I was like, oh, friends, we don't have to.
Rebecca Hass :
Life is too short.
Megan Ihnen :
We can be serious. We can be committed, we can be working towards greater aims and goals, and also not having to perpetuate our suffering, ourselves and each other right like. Let's just keep moving together.
Rebecca Hass :
Yes, and, man, if I tried to only write serious music, it wouldn't feel like me, so I wouldn't enjoy it. Like, I just finished writing a piece about my cat called Troublepaws, like, this is what I do. It's not that I never write anything serious, but if that was a requirement for me, that wouldn't work.
Megan Ihnen :
That's amazing and I cannot wait to hear that piece.
Rebecca Hass :
I need to make a recording of it and post it soon. I'm actually, I got together with a friend of mine who's a flute player and she's like, this is basically a flute piece, this is very "flutey" and I was like, it is! So we're going to arrange it for flute and piano also.
Megan Ihnen :
Ooh, I like it.
Rebecca Hass :
Yeah, it's a it's a Brazilian choro, so what's not to like there, too? So Megan, before we go, I have to ask you, what are you excited about right now?
Megan Ihnen :
Oh man, what am I excited about? Okay, this might be a little weird, always music stuff, but I'm actually most excited that I live in New Orleans now and I've lived here since right before the pandemic. Things are starting to feel like you can actually go to more stuff and things. You know, all of the festivals that we used to have, we are starting to have them again. So I'm actually just genuinely excited to live where I live, and enjoy it and being able to go to things, and seeing people be their wacky and amazing selves, and hear my friends make great music all the time. Nuts, it's so good. And so I'm genuinely excited about that, and that fills me up artistically to go do the next stuff that I'm going to do. So I'm kind of filling the well with that so that I can turn around and show up to my creative pursuits and be like, "I'm ready, I'm ready. Here we go.".
Rebecca Hass :
Awesome, i love that answer. People say things from, " I'm excited to eat lunch right now," to what they're working on right now, and I'm here for all answers. I love hearing what people are excited about. There's nothing better.
Megan Ihnen :
But, Rebecca, what's yours? .
Rebecca Hass :
What's mine? I'm excited about, this will be over by the time this airs, but I was just at California Brazil Camp last week, for a week in the redwoods, and I've been there several times. I used to come from Minnesota and do a whole trip and stuff, and now I can hop in the car and be there in under 2 hours, which is amazing. I I'm kind of riding that high of Brazilian music 24/7 for a week. A friend of mine there was like, "Oh, I haven't seen you in a while. I have to ask you if you can do this gig." That's with the Berkeley Choro Ensemble, with an orchestra, and there's a part for piano, and it's coming up in a couple of weeks as we're talking right now. It'll probably be over by the time that I air this episode, but it's a rare gig that is like, I feel I am perfectly suited for both, there are plenty of written out parts that I can just shed and do, and there's also improvisation, and it's in styles that I love, so it feels like the kind of gig that I've always wished for and hasn't come up, so I'm pumped for that.
Megan Ihnen :
I'm so excited for you.
Rebecca Hass :
Thank you. Yeah, I was practicing it earlier today and I was like, yeah, this is so great. It doesn't feel, it's like we were saying, the right kind of thing to fill you up and make you want to be your best self, but also your favorite self. It doesn't feel like the pressure to perform. It feels like I want to show up and do this and it's going to be awesome. So that's just a really good feeling.
Megan Ihnen :
That's an amazing feeling.
Rebecca Hass :
So I will savor that while I have it for sure, and then hopefully these things also lead to other things. Well, thank you so much for talking with me today. This has been so delightful.
Megan Ihnen :
Thank you. This was such a pleasure. I obviously love talking to you whenever I get the chance, so we'll have to do this again.
Rebecca Hass :
Absolutely!
